[xep-support] Another Arabic problem (diacritics)

Fri Aug 1 04:56:09 PDT 2008

Hi,

I am back from my summer vacation and have finally had time to continue the 
investigation on this subject.

I used FontForge to edit the font I use. I changed the width of the diacritic 
waw to zero and it works great. Thanks for all your help!

However I am now facing another problem. My customers texts contains a lot of 
O2, CO2 and so on. It works as long as I don't make the 2-character 
subscript. When I do that the 2 is moved to the left, 2CO.

A small example:
<fo:block>التي CO<fo:inline vertical-align="sub">2</fo:inline> يُقصد</fo:block>
<fo:block>التي CO2 يُقصد</fo:block>

You can find a PDF at:
http://www.zert.se/temp/arabic-test-20080801.pdf 

I guess I can fix this by changing the writing-mode for this word but I think 
this is a bad solution since I then must mark all these words in the source 
file.

I made a similar test in HTML and this is OK in both IE and Firefox:
<div>التي CO<span style="font-size: 60%; vertical-align: sub">2</span> 
يُقصد</div>

Does anyone have a solution for this in XEP.

Best Regards
Krister Wicksell

Zert AB
Hamngatan 7
S-921 31 Lycksele
Sweden
Tel. +46 (0)950 132 30
Mobile +46 (0)70 380 86 84
Fax. +46 (0)950 262 30
http://www.zert.se/

On Friday 27 June 2008 16:23:47 Reynolds-Gregg wrote:
> The smart thing to do is write a stylesheet to print a sample for each font
> on your system.  Create a small stylesheet and embed a fully vowelled line
> line of Arabic once, as literal text in an fo:block element, for each
> arabic font on your system.  Or better, wite the stylesheet to dynamically
> assign fonts.  Run it and you will see how XEP gets along with your fonts.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-xep-support at renderx.com [mailto:owner-xep-support at renderx.com]
> On Behalf Of Krister Wicksell Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 3:14 AM
> To: xep-support at renderx.com
> Subject: Re: [xep-support] Another Arabic problem (diacritics)
>
> Hi Peter,
>
> And thanks for your reply. Can you please give me the name of some fonts
> that you think are good for rendering Arabic text.
>
> Best Regards
> Krister Wicksell
>
> Zert AB
> Hamngatan 7
> S-921 31 Lycksele
> Sweden
> Tel. +46 (0)950 132 30
> Mobile +46 (0)70 380 86 84
> Fax. +46 (0)950 262 30
> http://www.zert.se/
>
> On Friday 27 June 2008 09:48:28 Peter von Kaehne wrote:
> > I think the solution suggested by Reynolds-Gregg is the one you should
> > be looking into. You essentially reposition the diacritic waw (and any
> > other diacritics giving you grief, so that it overlays the prvious
> > character. This solution is better then mine, I would think.
> >
> > And then there is the actual font you use - Arial is pretty good as it
> > deals with many scripts _reasonably_ competently but there are a huge
> > number of much better specific Arabic fonts. Have you experimented
> > with some of those?
> >
> > If you after all want/need to edit fonts, I did use fontforge, but I
> > had to only shift a few glyphs about. For merging several bits into
> > one custom glyph - you might have to look further. I do not know.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > Krister Wicksell wrote:
> > > Hi Peter,
> > >
> > > And thanks for your suggestions! However I want the source of the
> > > Arabic text to be correct both the glyphs and linguistic order. This
> > > is because the same text may be used for producing other publications
> > > not using XEP. I use Arial as font.
> > >
> > > Here http://www.zert.se/temp/diacritics.pdf you can download a PDF
> > > showing how the text should be rendered.
> > >
> > > So if I now need to modify the font, which sound as a complicated
> > > solution, does anyone have any suggestions on a software to use?
> > >
> > > Best Regards
> > > Krister Wicksell
> > >
> > > Zert AB
> > > Hamngatan 7
> > > S-921 31 Lycksele
> > > Sweden
> > > Tel. +46 (0)950 132 30
> > > Mobile +46 (0)70 380 86 84
> > > Fax. +46 (0)950 262 30
> > > http://www.zert.se/
> > >
> > > On Wednesday 18 June 2008 16:55:39 Peter von Kaehne wrote:
> > >> Krister Wicksell wrote:
> > >>> Hi Peter,
> > >>>
> > >>> I do not know Arabic but my translator says the words are splitted
> > >>> and I think he mean the little diacritic waw is supposed to be
> > >>> above the Yeh and not as a separate char.
> > >>
> > >> That is what I thought.
> > >>
> > >>> I have asked my translator for a picture of the correct rendering
> > >>> and will post that to this list as soon as I get it.
> > >>
> > >> That would be good.
> > >>
> > >>> I have also tried different fonts and also in Windows since i use
> > >>> Linux. But all my tests give the same result, a splitted word.
> > >>>
> > >>> I have found another old post talking about diacritics:
> > >>> http://services.renderx.com/lists/xep-support/1812.html
> > >>> In this post it is suggested to use special characters. For
> > >>> example for
> > >>> alef+hamza one should use &#x623. But I can not find any special
> > >>> character for this combination.
> > >>
> > >> I did the same search on your behalf and came to the same conclusion.
> > >>
> > >> A while back I had a problem with XEP not dealing with Farsi
> > >> numbers correctly - it ordered them RtoL instead of LtoR. The
> > >> solution I found then was create a custom font where my text had
> > >> Latin script numbers (correctly handled by XEP) and superimpose in
> > >> the font onto the Latin script numbers Farsi glyphs.
> > >>
> > >> Taking this further would mean to me that you could use unused
> > >> parts of unicode (which exist for such purposes) and put customised
> > >> glyphs in your font on those places, bypassing in this way the
> > >> rendering/glyph shaping attempts by XEP.
> > >>
> > >> This would be an ugly hack and probably very tedious if it applied
> > >> to more than a few glyphs, but it should work fine. The numbering
> > >> worked for me.
> > >>
> > >> That aside I would then also raise this again with renderx as a
> > >> potential bug/lack of feature. I am surprised that there are no
> > >> responses from them on this thread. They ar enormally very good
> > >> helping out. And I am also surprised that EMR who gave me such an
> > >> ugly flame has not produced anything productive.
> > >>
> > >> Peter
> > >>
> > >>> Best Regards
> > >>> Krister Wicksell
> > >>>
> > >>> Zert AB
> > >>> Hamngatan 7
> > >>> S-921 31 Lycksele
> > >>> Sweden
> > >>> Tel. +46 (0)950 132 30
> > >>> Mobile +46 (0)70 380 86 84
> > >>> Fax. +46 (0)950 262 30
> > >>> http://www.zert.se/
> > >>>
> > >>> On Monday 16 June 2008 17:00:41 Peter von Kaehne wrote:
> > >>>> Hi Krister,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Reading the private flame EMR had sent me, I thought you had your
> > >>>> solution dry and sorted.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I do not speak Arabic (I speak Farsi) , so I am not sure what the
> > >>>> exact desired outcome should look like.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Is the Yeh in teh framed word meant to be separate as in the
> > >>>> OpenOffice document or is it meant to be joined as attempted but
> > >>>> not succeeded in XEP?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Further the little diacritic waw is presumably supposed to be
> > >>>> above the Yeh - and not as in the OOo example smashed into the
> > >>>> diacritic double point of the Qaf?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Peter
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Krister Wicksell wrote:
> > >>>>> Hi,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I have still no solution to my problem so if anyone has a
> > >>>>> solution please post it to the list.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Best Regards
> > >>>>> Krister Wicksell
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Zert AB
> > >>>>> Hamngatan 7
> > >>>>> S-921 31 Lycksele
> > >>>>> Sweden
> > >>>>> Tel. +46 (0)950 132 30
> > >>>>> Mobile +46 (0)70 380 86 84
> > >>>>> Fax. +46 (0)950 262 30
> > >>>>> http://www.zert.se/
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Friday 13 June 2008 15:22:05 Peter von Kaehne wrote:
> > >>>>>> EMR,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I struggle to understand your outrage.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I commented on the documented output of both programmes and
> > >>>>>> said they are both wrong. Which they are - irrespective of
> > >>>>>> whether this is a programme or an input fault. Both examples
> > >>>>>> look a mess. That is a factual and neutral statement. There is
> > >>>>>> no need to flame or shoot off private outraged emails.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> If the solution lies in different input - as it seemd to be
> > >>>>>> with the percentage sign - then it would be extremely useful to
> > >>>>>> have this exposed and explained on the mailing list rather than
> > >>>>>> in - what has happened apparently - in private emails.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I find XEP wonderful but also totally daunting and I had my own
> > >>>>>> share of problems along similar lines - glyph shaping, number
> > >>>>>> ordering etc. I am learning from the mailing list even if I do
> > >>>>>> not write a lot. Glyph shaping though is an interest of mine.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Peter
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> EM Rosie wrote:
> > >>>>>>> Peter -
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> XEP didn’t produce a mess.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Ask Krister how she corrected her XML data and you will see
> > >>>>>>> that XEP correctly performed what asked to do.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I'm surprised you would acuse a product when it seems you know
> > >>>>>>> anything about the subject.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> EMR
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>>>> From: owner-xep-support at renderx.com
> > >>>>>>> [mailto:owner-xep-support at renderx.com] On Behalf Of Peter von
> > >>>>>>> Kaehne Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 12:00 PM
> > >>>>>>> To: xep-support at renderx.com; krister.wicksell at zert.se
> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xep-support] Another Arabic problem (diacritics)
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Krister Wicksell wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> Hi,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> When trying to create Arabic PDF:s I have found another problem.
> > >>>>>>>> Almost
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> all
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Arabic words having diacritics like "ً", "ُ ", etc. look
> > >>>>>>>> splitted. See
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> attached
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> example.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> actually neither of two examples look right. Open Office has
> > >>>>>>> not done any glyphshaping and XEP produced a mess too.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Peter
> > >>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> -------------------
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> > >>>>>>
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